Category: Let's talk
Hokkay. (My classic word for beginning an account of something that’s troubling to me personally.) Anyway here goes:
So, I was coming home from convention yesterday,, flying initially from Minneapolis to Chicago to get my next flight. I’m listening to music on my Stream when an announcement comes over the speakers about this, that and the other thing. I stop to listen, and take note that one can purchase alcoholic drinks and other luxuries with a credit/debit card. Cool,, I think to myself. I’ve had a long day, spending it with a couple of friends of mine whom I’ve known since college, and who happened to have been in town at the same time as the convention. We’d walked a lot, and they’d come with me to the airport, and indeed, I’d been doing a lot of walking around the city I once called home. My feet were tired, and all I wanted to do was get a gin and tonic. So, knowing that I needed to have my debit card out in order to actually purchase one, I got it out and asked the attendant for what I wanted. I waved my card at her to take it, and she said: “Oh, I’m not charging you.” “But they’re not free,” I said. “Well, I’m not charging for these,” she said again. Feeling uncomfortable about the whole thing, I put my tray table up and said: “Never mind.” A bit later, another attendant came through and I was able to pay for my drink. Before I got off the flight, the attendant who dealt with me originally and who refused to charge me, said: “You’re a stubborn man.” I gentaly shook my head and let the matter rest, got off the plane, got assistance to my next flight, and the rest of the trip proceeded without incident.
Now, I wonder: Is it me? Am I too easily offended? Too sensitive? I mean, what I wanted and expected was to be treated with the same respect as other passengers. Instead, I felt that more attention had to be drawn to me because it put me in a position in which I felt I had to stand up for my basic right to be treated the same as other passengers. I hate drawing attention to myself in any event, but I loathe it even mmore when others do it to me, or make it impossible for me not to do so. Do I have a bad attitude for simply wanting to conduct the same business as others around me and then left in peace? Your collective thoughts would definitely be appreciated.
I'd have taken it. Why say no to free drinks? People get free drinks at bars all the time just for looking vaguely cool/hot/interesting.
You wanted real thoughts, so I should probably say a bit more. haha
I understand not wanting to draw attention to yourself, but I think by refusing the offer of what I understand was a single free drink, you did more to draw that attention than the attendant did by simply offering that drink. What's more, unless I misinterpreted your post, it doesn't sound like she was offering to keep you supplied in free alcohol for your entire flight. It kind of baffles me that you feel you were being disrespected. Clearly the attendant knew you were perfectly capable of paying for your drink. If she would have refused to serve you at all (which does happen in some places), that would have been a mark of disrespect. It seems to me she was trying to be nice to you, probably because she thought you seemed interesting, or maybe she thought you were good-looking. She said she wouldn't charge you for the drink, but someone was going to be paying for it, and that someone would have been her. Essentially, I think you robbed her of the fruition of her impulse to be nice and good-natured to someone. Granted, I didn't hear her tone; maybe it was more condescending than I imagine, but hell, I would have still gone for the free drink
i totally agree with the previous poster. this flight attendant was trying to be nice to you. my dear, as my 26 year old daughter said to me after i was ranting about some similar situation "mom, courtesy is free. the dividends are incalculable." it's nice when our kids are smarter than are we.
another thing to think about. many flight attendants hate charging anyone for stuff. so, they try to get one over on the boss man whenever possible.
hope you enjoyed Minneapolis.
I think it was rude to not accept a free drink from the flight attendant. You were probably analyzing the situation too much, and adding something to it that wasn't even there--namely, her "treating you differently."
As I've said before on other topics, sometimes it isn't about a person's disability, or someone thinking disabled people are incompetent. Rather, this person wanted to do something nice for someone, and you happened to be the one he or she picked to carry out her good deed. Oftentimes disabled people's perception of how they are perceived is inaccurate because non-disabled people really do not think about them to the extent that they, the disabled person, thinks they do.
You know what, I see both sides of it. On one hand, you were offered something for free so take it. On the other hand, I can see how one could be uneasy. You were probably thinking "Oh, it's because of my handicap." It may or may not be the case. I would just let it go. Write it off as a free drink and let that be the end of it.
"Oftentimes disabled people's perception of how they are perceived is inaccurate because non-disabled people really do not think about them to the extent that they, the disabled person, thinks they do.
"
This is an important point.
Offering you a drink is not taking away your independence. It's not a mark of pity by default. There are lots of reasons someone might want to do it and your disability might be lower down on the list than you think.
Why are you so eager to pay the airline company more money anyway? hahaha
Hey Corpsegrinder. Nice alias.
Enjoy the ground meat plant!
haha I'm a stupid idiot apparently.
I do understand the unease as I said. It's also possible that someone else could say "those people get everything." I've actually heard that in the past. So I think the op is a bit paranoid but I get it.
It’s interesting to me that so many of you thus far would have accepted it. And for the sake of the discussion, I’ll even concede that most non-disabled people probably don’t think about disabled people at all. We know this, and I know this from personal experience. When I was out walking in Minneapolis, and indeed when I’m out in public most of the time, the vast majority of people go about their business and leave me to do the same. I went to one of my favorite restaurants three times when I was in Minneapolis and probably paid close to $300 as a result of those three visits. I conducted countless transactions and made innumerable purchases without incident, and no one commented. No one asked me if I was sure I could afford it. When some asked me whether or not I needed assistance, I accepted the offer if I thought I needed it. But we also know that some people do take notice, and some treat us differently based on the fact that we are different from them, and to their way of thinking, different in a negative or pitiable way. We all can relate instances where we were treated way differently from the sighted. People will sometimes do and say things to us that they wouldn’t do or say to a sighted person. Granted it’s in the minority, but it still occurs in enough cases that we comment on it here. In fact, we’re always commenting on it. Someone stated that perhaps she found me cool or interesting. I doubt it. Some people probably found me cool and interesting while I was with my people at the convention, but I was in the proper environment where this was possible. Otherwise, I was just an average-looking middle-aged guy on an airplane, just trying to get to my seat, settle in and go about my business. Except for two factors: I’m blind, and, I submit, that was the primary focus of her attention. And I’ll submit that there were factors that caused me to interpret the situation the way I did. As far as I knew, I was the only blind passenger on that flight. Just maybe I was incorrect in that assumption. But as I was attempting to find my seat, this particular flight attendant asked me if I was traveling by myself, sort of the way you might ask a young child or adolescent. I internally took points off for that. When I took those two particular facts and added them to the fact that she seemed to be violating the terms of the announcement – namely that if you wanted an alcoholic beverage, you purchase them with a card or cash – I just couldn’t be sure that she was not charging me just to be nice, or whether my blindness was the deciding factor. I suspect the latter, and I think with good reason. Someone asked why I was so eager to give the airline more money. To me that’s not the issue. Rather, it’s whether she decided that my blindness meant that I was somehow less capable, or whether the rules should not be applied to me because of that fact. And I was taught from a very early age to believe that wherever possible, rules should be applied to me equally as a blind person as to a sighted one. If other passengers have to pay for their drinks, then I should be expected to do the same, else I shouldn’t be getting one, right? That has always been my way, and I draw a line in the sand on that point. Admittedly I do sometimes worry about making mountains out of molehills, but at the same time, I do have to pose the following question: If blind or disabled people sometimes analyze situations in a way that says the non-disabled person is treating them differently because of their disability, then where might this perception come from? It doesn’t happen in a vacuum; it happens sometimes because the non-disabled person does perceive the disabled one as somehow less than they are; more unfortunate, more deserving of undue sympathy. You can tell it in the tone of voice and general demeanor of that person. You can tell it by watching their interactions with someone else and then comparing it to their interactions with you. If I did in fact read the situation correctly, then am I just supposed to shrug off my discomfort until the next time it happens, and then shrug it off again? Keep shrugging it off? It’s a little bit different to me than getting free drinks at the bar because you’re cool or interesting. At that point you’ve sort of proven that you’re cool or interesting, and you’ve established a relationship with the person or persons who think you’re cool or interesting. If it just happens and you might be the only blind person sitting at the bar and it’s your first drink and you’re doing nothing to establish how cool or interesting you are because you’re tired and you just wanna have a drink in peace, then that’s where I sort of have to wonder. Are you getting that free drink because the person giving it to you simply feels sorry for you? And then, do you tolerate it, shrug it off and accept it all the while knowing how that person probably feels? And how many times do you allow it to happen? If you know you’re perceived as less than someone without a disability, how many times do you shrug it off and not make a mountain out of a molehill? How many times do you allow yourself to be someone else’s good deed and get robbed of just a bit of your self-respect? After all, it shouldn’t mean that much to you, right? And when do you actually tell that the disabled person is being overly paranoid about a situation like this and when they mmight be right? And in either event, does the disabled person just do nothing and accept the possibility that he’s just become someone’s good deed? Anyone else with similar worries?
yes, I also would have accepted it. If they want to give me special treatment, in that case, fine, let them. Lol :) But as people have said, it's not always, though I do understand it is mostly, because of your disability.
I totally agree with everyone here.
I think you’d just been at the ACB deal and gotten all that “I’m capable” stuff in you.
Laughing.
You caused more of an attention grabbing incident then if you’d just said thank you.
To some people, you probably made a blind middle aged man look worse then you intended, because you were causing the flight attendant to look poorly.
You had no idea if the man behind you had sent you the drink either.
Not that that happened, but you understand.
Sometimes being capable, abled, and I’m just as good as everyone else goes too far, because you can’t actually know how that flight attendant felt about you.
You were asked if you were traveling alone, because that is the rules. They must know for varying reasons.
Plus, you say you like to go by the rules, right? Did you get on the plane before everyone else?
It is a rule set up to make the flight attendants job easier, because they have no idea how able a person may or may not be.
Stop making every situation in to a “blind thing”.
Accept a kindness that doesn’t harm you, nor take away your dignity, make you look poor, or unable to pay.
In some cases it just is unbecoming.
Yes, I understand your feelings, but in this case, it just was uncalled for.
Did you check your bank to make absolutely sure you paid for that drink?
Hahaha. I’ll bet you didn’t think about that, did you.
Oh, and next time, get a whiskey and soda. Far cooler in my opinion.
Laughing.
I disagree. I think you did the right thing in not taking it. Yes there's the idea
that its free, and free things are good. But if you allow yourself to be treated as
a pityable person, you allow yourself to continue to be treated that way. So, she
may have not charged you for the drink, then manhandled you when you tried
to get off the plane. Accepting things like that surrenders your agency, and that
is something one should never do.
but she said, "I'm not charging for these." Are you sure that you're the only one she offered the free drink to?
Wayne, as for pre-boarding, I don’t think there’s a rule that forces me to do this. In fact, I believe there’s a provision in the ADA that pretty much permits me to take the option of pre-boarding if I wish to do so, but there’s no rule prohibiting me from making that decision on my own. I’m asked whether or not I want to pre-board, and almost invariably I don’t. I’d also like to know whether or not there’s a specific rule that states that flight attendants are required to ask anyone, much less someone like me, whether they’re flying by themselves or not. Because if there is a rule, it gets violated all the time according to my experience, as almost nobody ever asks me that question, and I’ve never overheard anyone else being asked that question either. As for whether or not I might have made the flight attendant look bad, that for me opens up a whole other can of worms with, I think, larger implications, which is why I posted this in the first place, really. Undoubtedly I couldn’t read the attendant’s mind to deduce what she really thought about me. Nobody on earth I know of can do so. But I was going by what I observed, and that’s all any of us, blind or sighted, can do, and from what I observed, that’s why she behaved toward me as she did, as opposed to anyone else. If you’re right that blindness may not have played a role in her decision to try not to charge me, then I may have committed a social gaffe. Oh well. Learning all the time, even at this late date. But if I’m right and blindness was the deciding factor in how she behaved toward me as opposed to any other passenger on that flight, then it begs the question: Do blind or disabled people not ever have the right to be offended at being made someone else’s good deed? Are we never supposed to stand up for ourselves if we feel we might be getting special treatment because the person dishing it out feels pity toward us? And if we do stand up for ourselves, even politely, it seems to me we fall into another stereotype: That of the oversensitive, bitter disabled person who doesn’t know how to be grateful. If blindness for her was the issue, then somehow it doesn’t seem quite on the square that I’m supposed to just pretend there’s no issue and accept her generosity because to do otherwise is absolutely, positively impolite no matter how politely I refused. And dignity for me was and is the issue here. If I didn’t feel a loss of dignity by what she did, and in a rather public manner, why would I even have bothered to post this?
First she said: “I’m not charging you for that.” Then I got uncomfortable when I said that we’re supposed to pay, or something close to that. And that’s when she said she wasn’t charging for these. It seemed to me at the time that she was trying to save face because she saw how uncomfortable I was with the whole idea. That’s when I just said never mind, and that’s when the second attendant allowed me to make my purchase. Can I be 100 percent sure she wasn’t charging anyone else for alcoholic drinks? Concededly no. But then that strikes me as stupid if the captain, or whoever it was, specifically told all the passengers that if we wanted alcohol, we either had to pay cash or use our cards. Using context, it seems to me she was required to follow through and do what she was supposed to do, not make up her own mind that she wasn’t charging anyone for anything no matter what they wanted. Anything else just doesn’t make sense.
Cody, I do see your side of it but you don't know her true intentions. As hard as it is to believe, there are nice people in the world. Not many perhaps, but there ya go.
I think it is always best to pay for one's goods, rather than assume to receive
the generosity of others.
Well, interesting post from silver lightning up there that made me cogitate a little more. I think it's largely a matter of perspective and background. Speaking for myself, I come from a sort of background where people buy drinks for others all the time, and they don't always have to be good friends even in order to do so. Sometimes it just means "hey, I think you're probably cool", or maybe, "stand here and talk to me for a while", or "I really like your shirt/patch vest/whatever". I think it's rude to question the motives behind such an act in a non-joking way, and I don't know if the motives are really all that important in the end anyway. It's not so much about "getting free stuff", but rather that someone wants to do something for you that you might remember, or that will put a grin on your face for a little while, or yeah, honestly, might make them feel kind of good about themselves for a bit. if someone really has a problem with that last motivation, I suggest stepping back for a second ans asking yourself why letting someone else feel good, *on top of* the fact that you've gotten a drink out of the deal, is such a bad thing.
And of course, don't forget that the drink wouldn't have actually been free, probably; the attendant would have paid for it herself. I got a free drink from the bartender at a show in Detroit a few weeks back; it was at the end of the night and I'd been buying drinks for hours, so at that point I just said "sweet, awesome, thanks, you're great!" and went back into the crowd. I was already a customer; she seemed sweet and had already received some of my money, so why not? I don't see the scenarios as really being that different, even if you hadn't already been tipping her for services and so on.
Ah but again I see cody's side of it. Though I don't think Johndy just sat back and assumed it would be given. He was a bit humiliated. I talked about how people have handed me money and I felt so weird about it. I did try to refuse but the person just walked away. So I understand both sides. It's a difficult and horrible situation to be in.
Right. I agree with you last poster
The ADA or whatever doesn't make it an iron clad rule you must board first.
What I mean is someone set down and decided to make the rule for us so things could be simpler.
We fight it, because you all know why, so now it isn't a rule, but a suggestion.
Same with asking you if you were traveling alone. I have no idea what the motive was, but maybe, just maybe the attendant wasn't sure, so checked?
Maybe, just maybe, it was an attempt to learn how much service you might require to make your trip easier, because the attendant can't tell how skillful you are just because you walked in.
So, okay, being nice politely was a crime.
Sure, if it was more than a free drink, I could agree, but this just seemed like trying to make your trip nicer.
Just maybe that attendant put overhead bags in the top for someone, offered Kleenex to a passenger traveling with a small child, just might have offered a pillow to someone that looked sleepy.
Just trying to do a good job maybe?
Smile.
You have to remember, these people are trained to make the airline look good, so that free drink just might have been that.
If you were a seeing guy, you’d have taken that drink no matter what the announcement said.
But, okay, we blind people have to always be on our toes, and guard, less we get miss treated.
Not for me. Call it as you will, but I’d have taken the free drink, said thank you, and offered a tip.
Ah, takes a sip of that free Whiskey and soda.
Laughing.
Someone got between me and Damnable Reverend
. Lol
I'm sorry John D, but I just feel there is a time and place for refusal.
But giving someone a drink is not at all like giving them money. I would have refused the money point blank and told the attendant to get back to work, in that case.
I think it's a sad assumption to make to figure that someone just wants to do this thing for you because you are a "poor blind person" (in quotes there). Ok, so sometimes it's true, but you've got to be pretty cynical to assume that's 100% what it's about. As forereel said up there, if you had been sighted, would you still have scoffed at that drink? Forereel says "no", and I'm kind of thinking the same thing.
I'd take it and say thanks. No remorse.
No repent!
we dont' care
what it meant!
here is an interesting story. last summer my husband and two other women went to the ACB convention. we were all blind. on the way to dallas, all of us were served by the same flight attendant. foolishly we all purchased those boxes. you know the kind filled with fake food? my husband and I paid. the two other women got their tasty meals for free. why did this happen? who can say. it was nice that they got free food. I have more important things to think about then to obsess over someone else's actions. you know that gin and tonic has cost you more heartache and aggravation then whatever you didn't pay for it. it was a tiny moment in time. it was what it was and you did what you did.
Now, if they said they didn't feel comfortable giving alcohol to a blind person, then I would get pissed. That's happened to people I'm sure.
as for getting on board the plane ahead of the crowd. if I have that option I will take it in a heart beat!!!!! if you want to be in a herd of moaning, griping, pushing cattle, knock yourself out. being lazy and looking for the easy life, i'll go first. thanks so much.
Correct, they offer complementary drinks all the time from what I understand, and not only to frequent flyers. But they aren’t allowed to receive tips, or so that’s what I think.
I imagine flight attendants must have a stressful job having to deal with nervous passengers. One can speculate endlessly about a person’s intentions.
People using plastic to pay for drinks on a plane unnerves me. A few months ago I read a story about an overheated credit card reader forcing a plane to land. But I have to compromise my values to put up with risks and other people’s stupidity when flying, as much as I hate putting myself in situations where I have little or no control. My life is in the pilot's hands and this is all I am thinking about when I'm on a plane. If flight attendants are there to keep things safe and orderly - I'm okay with that.
Maybe she wanted to serve as many flyers as possible and as quickly as possible, without prolonging serving time. I see no harm done in a flight attendant doing this every so often. It actually makes things run smoothly in such a cramped setting. Think of the other people she has to worry about. This is why I imagine their work is stressful. Also, they dislike when a passenger has to use the restroom right when they are pushing the cart along the aisle. Maybe she just wanted to avoid having to scan the card, have you sign and hand you a receipt. Imagine how time-consuming it would be having to do this politely for more than one passenger.
I also fail to understand why blindness would factor in this situation, and even if it had, I strongly doubt it would humiliate me or wound my dignity as a human being. It’s simply one polite gesture that lasts no more than a minute, we owe each other nothing, know nothing about one another. Just a passing act of kindness. Maybe she had had a few drinks herself, and just maybe they could afford giving away some alcohol if they would soon be restocking on this item.
Again this is just speculation. I ask for bottled water and nothing more when flying.
This board has reminded me of the movie Inside I’m Dancing, where the character who is disabled demands that he too be arrested and processed like a common criminal along with the others.
Pity for one’s blindness can be worse than an insult, but sometimes it’s empathy and not always pity. I do believe a difference exists there. I'm not saying the flight attendant in this case was guilty of either.
I also realize that others view such alcoholic drinks as "luxuries" and to be denied the chance to purchase them may cause these people to feel misperceived as financially unable to afford them. This happens to everyone, not only the blind. But again, I don’t think people need to find it morally repulsive or disturbing in any other way to be mistaken for belonging to an out-group if they’re secure with who they are, excluding any personal harm to themselves of course. Reacting so negatively to such situations is something you rarely see regardless of the person’s status or identity.
I'd have boarded first and enjoyed the free drink.
Sorry johndy.
I typed your name wrong.
I'm not being silly. I know that bothers you, so.
You have said so on other post when people have made mistakes on it.
I just noticed while reading post here.
I can't believe that a grown man finds being offered a free drink something that takes away his dignity and ruins his day. I find that the OP is being awfully presumtuous himself, while wanting others not to be presumptuous about him as a disabled person. Hypocritacal? Definitely.
I hope that flight attendant doesn't take your meanness to heart like many sighted people do, who have similar experiences. Hopefully she will continue to offer people drinks, no matter who they are.
This is not a blindness issue at all, but an issue of a blind man who seems ready to fight at every turn, and tell the world how great he is for never being people's good deeds.
As I've said on other topics, sometimes that's what our lives are about: learning not to assume people only wanna do nice things for us because we're disabled and in turn, accepting their kindnesses for exactly what they are, kindnesses to a fellow human being. Life is made a lot harder when people take things personally, instead of relaxing and allowing themselves to enjoy freebees once in awhile.
Nurse, Nurse? Can I have something to write with? Oh, sorry, I forgot. Accepting that one drink suddenly weakened my muscles and weakened the areas of my brain that allow me to choose whether or not to ask for help and now I’m completely crippled, and to think, just from that one acceptance of an offer of help or in this case, a free drink. Damn, this breathing tube that’s down my throat is uncomfortable as hell! However, it’s what happens when accepting even one offer of help or in this case, that free drink, it just automatically weakened my hands, destroyed my motor skills and I can’t even breathe on my own now, oh the pain, the pain! Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, whatever shall I do! Wherever shall I fly!!!!!!!! Oh, now my heart is slowing to the point of stopping! Oh, I’m just dreading the shock of the defibulator! Now it’s stopped all together! No, No, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
James
this topic has caused a lot of talking around our dinner table. it's a pleasant change. anyway my husband pointed out something some of us have never considered. when we as blind people get on that tube with wings that shouldn't fly with the common herd we risk losing our carry ons. on planes that are crowded, if the flight attendant sees that people are struggling to find a place to put their valued stuff, they take it and stow it in a bin farther down. we are frequent cross country flyers and are aware that this happens frequently onsold out aircraft. . so a sighted passenger can see where his/her stuff was placed. good luck for us. thanks, I like my laptop and he needs his c pap. we'll get on first. you spend your vacation time looking for your belongings. enjoy your day.
The vast majority of these responses are pretty interesting, actually,, because they raise some pretty intriguing questions,, which was the whole point of why I even brought this up. Post 20 brings to mind the question of context. You’re in a bar, and at the end of the night the bartender buys you a drink. You’re cool and interesting, and you’ve basically proven yourself to that bartender and the other patrons. And you’ve been buying drinks for other people around you. You’re basically seen as an equal. I would say that in this particular context it’s probably pretty shallow to question the bartender’s motives at this point in time. Me, I’m sitting there listening to the captain announce that people who want to buy alcohol are required either to pay cash or to use their cards. It was my first and only drink of the flight. I think it would be kinda cool to have something I rarely ever have, so when the attendant asks me what I want, I whip the card out and request a gin and tonic. I already get a sense from her that she’s a little different toward me than she is with other passengers,, but I don’t say anything. She gets a bit too touchy-feely at times, and I don’t much care for such people. In short,, she’s making a somewhat bad impression on me, and I’m feeling pretty hinky about it all. I’m trying not to be rude, but when her hands are a little bit too present in my personal space, I flinch away. It’s a reaction that’s so imbedded in me by now that I really don’t know how to change it at this juncture. You gotta have permission from me to do that sort of thing. When I juxtapose that with her refusing to charge me and then attempting, as I saw it, to cover it up by saying she wasn’t charging for those, I added two and two and got what to me seemed the right answer. Was I possibly wrong? I’ll concede that for the sake of argument. But then, one of the larger issues I’ve actually been trying to raise is when do we trust our readings of the situation and when do we not? I say it’s actually rather natural for a blind or disabled person to question people’s motives at times when they can tell, or think they can tell, that the primary motive for why this or that person wants to do A, B or C for us is based in pity. I’ve told the story of my Amtrack trip when someone insisted on buying my lunch for me, and I had to say no thank you, rather insistently, several times. The immediate question that comes to mind is why did that person pick me as his good deed? Like it or not, the answer to me was obvious. A friend of mine who happens to be blind always shopped at this one particular store. One day while waiting to be rung out, she noticed that the process seemed to be taking far longer than normal. After asking a couple times what was going on and being told that it would only be another minute or two, she was finally informed by the cashier that someone had paid her entire grocery bill for her. Evidently the exchange between the cashier and the anonymous benefactor took place pretty much in silence, or she would’ve been aware enough to have stopped it in time not to have caused her, and ultimately the cashier, a lot of discomfort. Because after insisting that she wasn’t going to accept it and getting flak from the cashier,, she finally got to speak with the manager, who made the cashier ring her out properly. What other motive did this anonymous person have other than the obvious? Why pick her over some other random stranger? Was she wrong to feel uncomfortable with the situation? Do we have the right to politely refuse something without it being perceived as rude or mean? At what particular point does one start to make a mountain out of a mmolehill? Is it the free drink? Is it the lunch situation on Amtrack? Is it the incident in the grocery store? How do we quantify it, and when do we just shrug and go on with our lives, even knowing, or perhaps suspecting, that blindness or disability played a major role in someone’s particular interactions with us? See, the hard part about situations like this is that the people doing such things aren’t evil, and they have no bad intentions. In their mind they’re being kind. But sometimes this kindness can be constraining, demeaning and uncomfortable. And I submit that sometimes we’re put into the untenable position of deciding when not to make a scene and when to assert ourselves positively. And sometimes we make mistakes. This topic was actually designed to explore these issues. Hopefully it will.
I personally would have taken the free drink, and went on with my life. No sense in getting all upset over this. There are times where I would not accept such stuff, but whatever...
I think its pretty safe to assume that blindness played a role in this situation.
Its one of the reasons I almost never accept free things. If I'm sitting and
having a conversation with someone, and they buy the next round, I'll accept it,
or if someone invites me out to dinner or something like that. But if someone
just wants to buy me something, no. Because I'm no one's cherity case. I work
hard to get where I am, and I'm proud of it.
You keep adding things to the argument.
I'm still with accepting the drink.
I do understand the side Cody presents as well - of course I do. I guess the way I see it is, I prob won't see them again and if they want too do it for me, why the heck not?
I'm sure you Cody would hate it if you go to the counter to pay for a restaurant meal and find someone has already paid for it? I've had that happen twice when I've been out with blind friends; I do hate that to be honest, but alas, I've not been able to do a thing about it as they've leaved and also not wanted to be identified. I do feel that is slightly worse than accepting a free drink.
left, sorry. bugger my fast typing.
To the OP, the real questions are why do you care what people's motives are? Why do you spend so much time thinking so hard about who is trying to get one over on you, give you unwanted attention or fixating on your disability? What is the harm in simply accepting the fact that there are nice people in the world who wanna do nice things for fellow humans? The world could sure use much more kindness with everything that's gone on lately, wouldn't you say? Because as has been said, this is not about disability, not even just a little. People do nice things for each other all the time, because it makes others feel good to know they have made someone smile. Maybe you have never experienced this in your life, but you oughta try it yourself someday; it may be the start to a generally positive outlook on your life as well as the lives of others you encounter.
Oh yes, I've had that happen. I've had it happen at a dinner where I went
with the specific intent of spending money. I was celebrating by myself, and had
four or five imported beers. I felt horrible after that. They bought me probably
thirty dollars or more in beer alone, and it was not a cheap restaurant for the
food either. But why is it any different if someone wants to by one drink as
oppose to buy six if they didn't ask you in the first place? If one is bad, the
other is bad too.
Very interesting stuff here, causing me to question my gut feelings quite rigorously. Here's something I find strange: I'm okay with accepting a free drink or free food, even on planes (though I always hope it isn't about the blindness--you never can tell). People generally give out of kindness and you do more good accepting than you do making a scene. (That being said, we are not responsible for people's ability to feel warm fuzzies, so there's that.) The one thing I cannot and will not accept is money. I don't know why, but it feels...so, so wrong somehow. Does anyone else find accepting money awkward and uncomfortable?
I guess it depends on how it's done. I haven't had many occasions to test it out, but years ago, a Walmart employee was helping me shop. After I bought my goods, she sat with me, waiting for my ride. This woman came up to us and tried to make small talk. Then she turned to the lady and said,"Do I give the money directly to him, or to you? I don't tend to offend easily, but I felt very insulted, and the employee was extremely embarrassed. Needless to say, no money changed hands during that conversation.
If I had bought a bunch of groceries and was standing out in the pouring rain, waiting to catch the buss and someone came up to me and offered to pay my way home in a cab, I'd most likely accept that. To me, there's a pretty big difference.
I've had money shoved into my hand before. I was holding my headphones,
and it formed a little cup, and a man came up and shoved a bill into my hand. I
don't know if it was one dollar, or a hundred dollar bill, but I went off. I don't
remember exactly what I said, but I was furious.
Oh, the lucky ones.
The only time I’ve gotten a free meal is because I had a coupon.
Laughing.
Sure, I’ve gotten them via hospitality, meaning a hotel has free breakfast, or so many drinks for free.
Same with some bars.
I’ve been given a drink either by the bar tender, or wait staff, and now and then a person.
Never has a stranger paid for my groceries.
When I worked guide dogs, people would try to give me money, so I’d politely refuse if I had the chance.
If they got away, I never got mad, just smiled and gave them the day.
I just don’t take these things personally.
I’m a blind man, and I give money to panhandlers, if I notice someone is short say at the store a dollar or so.
I’ll buy a drink.
I’ve taken kids on the train with me after they’d spent their money at the amusement park.
If I feel like I’m helping someone, I understand perfectly what someone else feels when they extend something to me.
In this case however, hospitality is the key. Hotels, airlines, some businesses are all the time offering free stuff, so I never look on these as charity.
What’s so wrong with charity anyway?
I’ll give to the can food drives, whatever. Why is that so different when someone sees you celebrating and allows you to enjoy that evening by paying your bill?
You were alone, so, maybe it did someone good to do it for you.
Most times I don’t think it is about how much money you have, or how successful you are.
Someone gives to me, I give to someone else, and the love/charity goes around, and we all live comfortably.
What’s so bad about this?
ack I would have died.
the one time I had money forced on me I said thank you and gave it to a homeless guy. that's passing things forward don't you think? getting mad is easy. doing good is even better.
Honestly, I don't really think you were doing good in that situation. You might
have been helpful, but you weren't doing good. You didn't sacrifice anything,
and it didn't cost you anything. I think it would have been better to educate that
person on why what they did was unacceptable. Then maybe, if they met
another blind person, they'd treat them as an equal, and not a pity party.
I have always found it interesting how sighted people get offended by the reactions of a blind person when they have done something to violate the cultural norms within our society. However, it looks as though I am in the minority here by saying that I probably would have reacted the same way as you.
I think it is one thing to receive a free drink from someone at the bar who finds you attractive or interesting enough to impress you or grab your attention by buying you a drink. Or the bar tender who gives you a free drink after a night of buying drinks for others at the bar and tipping the bar tender well. Or perhaps if the flight attendant knew you and wanted to give you a break on the cost of the drink because of the fact that she knew you as a friend and not some random passenger on a plane. I would consider all of these things to be things that occur within the cultural norms of our society regardless if a person is sighted or blind.
However, the way you describe what happened to you on the plane appears to go against the cultural norms within our society. I used to fly quite a bit, and even when there was the heightened security of random passenger screenings at the gate, I was never asked if I was flying alone. So I am honestly not quite sure why the flight attendant would ask you this question besides wondering if there was someone else with you to help you find your way to the plane and to your seat. In my experience, most sighted people question and wonder how blind people are able to navigate independently on their own without any sighted assistance.
It seems to me that airlines are always trying to squeeze every last dollar they can out of their passengers. Therefore, I wonder how likely flight attendants would be to provide free drinks to its passengers. Perhaps this is something done in first class, but I have never seen it before in all my travels flying coach. Therefore, if you were flying coach class, and the announcement said that you needed to pay for your drinks, then it would appear as though the flight attendant was going against the established cultural norms in offering your drink for free. Why the flight attendant did this is really anyone's speculation at this point.
However, it appears rather obvious that your interactions with this particular flight attendant made you feel uncomfortable. And in my opinion, if anyone is doing something that makes you feel uncomfortable, especially if they are doing something that makes you feel uncomfortable without asking you if it is okay to do in the first place, then I believe you have every right to stand up for yourself and let the other person know that what they are doing is not okay with you.
Personally, I think it was the flight attendant who was the one who caused the scene between the two of you by not being willing to accept your money for the drink. As the flight attendant, it is her job to collect the money for the drinks. And unless she was not accepting the credit cards from other passengers, which I believe is rather unlikely, she may have very well been singling you out because of your blindness. It really amazes me how many sighted people simply do not believe that the accepted cultural norms within our society simply do not apply to blind people.
I've talked about the money thing on the topic pitty from the sighted. It was insulting to me for sure.
I would never accept money from a stranger and I'm not at all surprised people find this particular form of charity to be different and rather degrading. It used to happen to me occasionally as a kid and even once or twice as an adult. I usually just say "I have a job; I've got my own money, thanks." The difference? It probably has something to do with money being a basic need in our society, so someone seeing the "poor blind person" and assuming that they must benefit from their cash is basically assuming that that person's basic needs aren't being met. Noone *needs* a drink, so in that equation I think there's far less of a chance for pity or self-satisfied "I did a good deed today" kind of antics.
Sometimes the drink thing can be humiliating. It's all how you personally view the situation.
Well, if it gets to the point it is humiliating, that to me would have to do with how you view yourself?
Someone doing something for me doesn't make me any less of what I am.
I hope when I do something for others, they don't feel I'm making them less of what they are.
Just a thought.
It kind of does though Wayne. If you see yourself as an independent blind
person who can go through life perfectly well on their own, and someone forces
you to accept cherity, doesn't that kind of effect how you see yourself? After all,
if you truly were an independent blind person who can go through life by
themselves, you wouldn't have accepted cherity, but you did, so are you? Like
I've said, this case is minor, but it speaks of a greater problem.
and, for the record, no, there is no difference between you accepting money
and you accepting a drink. I'm sure you'd like there to be one, but there isn't
one. Not in the intent anyway.
Well, someone handing me 2 dollars isn't going to make me independent now is it?
Before they hand me, or more less force it on me, because I'm not reaching out to get it, I'm independent .
What changes?
I'm still the same before and after.
I can buy myself a cup of coffee with it, or I can pass it on like put it in one of these collection jars you sometimes see on counters.
Still doesn't change anything for me but the coffee.
If I want to make it go, I remember to slip it in a collection jar along with a couple I had before I got the extra 2.
A drink on an airline isn't charity, that is hospitality.
I do understand some would feel lesser, but I happen not to.
This topic remeinds me of some others we've discussed here about this same situation.
I wonder, how many of you who feel accepting a drink is wrong donate?
Just interested how you feel about that.
If you donate, why?
Are you not donating because you feel you are helping humanity?
Are you not donating to someone that may, or may not be in lesser of a place then you?
When you donate, are you trying to make whoever receives feel less.
Do you feel they are less?
Wow, for once I think I actually agree with SilverLightning. I do not see how this is about someone feeling less than because of someone else offering something they do not desire in the first place. I simply see it as something that may cause discomfort for someone. I do not think feeling uncomfortable about something does not automatically mean that you somehow feel inferior to someone else. It simply means that you feel uncomfortable or uneasy about a given situation. It seems to me that is what happened here in this situation with the flight attendant.
I do see that with money, but not the flight attendant.
I just wonder why is all.
I do understand I view these things differently then most.
On the donation thing. I do donate to things but I don't want people donating to me. I don't need charity.
Yes Wayne, I do think they are less. They are less fortunate than I am, less
able than I am, les wealthy than I am. I don't want to be seen the same way
unless I absolutely have to be. That's why someone buying me a drink, or
buying me food, is insulting to me. Its not something I have the choice of
refusing, and its not something I need. So I am being a cherity case, a person
being used to make someone else feel better about themselves, without me
needing that cherity. its forcing me into a lower class without me belonging
there.
And let me just add that by sitting back and taking the charity, good will, or however you want to word it, you are reinforcing the public's view of us.
Wayne, you point out that I keep adding things to the argument. I do that when points need clarifying and the argument needs supporting. I also didn’t want to make my opening statement overly long. I don’t think anything more needs to be added to this fact pattern,, however. You also state that if I could see, I might’ve accepted the drink. Valid point. But here’s the deal. I’ve been on this planet for 51, going on 52 years, only as a blind person. I think I’ve lived long enough to know when someone is focusing on the blindness more than on just me as a person. I’ve been in stores where I’ve had to force the issue when cashiers have told me they didn’t want to take money from a blind guy. I’ll bring up the Amtrak thing yet again. I was just standing in line waiting to buy my food, minding my own business, not saying anything to anyone. You can’t possibly tell me that the guy who just up and wanted to buy my lunch for me found me cool or interesting, so that was his reason. He saw someone whom he viewed as less fortunate than he was because he could see and I could not. And I’ve been in situations when I’ve been afraid for my own safety because some guy in the Port Authority in New York thought I was faking, yelling at me that he didn’t have any money for me and not to come near him. Some stupid kid in the coffeeshop where I always went to get my morning dose before work got in my face and told me not to even try it. Wonder what he meant by that. Because in the minds of some people, we’re either beggars or in need of charity. Point being that my reaction to what occurred the other day didn’t occur in a vacuum. I analyzed the situation as it was taking place, and I operated the way I did based on what I know and what I’ve experienced in the past. Crazy_cat is also right, and probably said it better than I’ve been able to thus far. I was attempting to operate under the norms as I saw them. The captain said we must pay for drinks. The attendant, as I saw it, was going against those norms because she wanted me to be her good deed. Sorry, but I don’t play that. If I was the only blind person on that flight and she offered that free drink only to me, then what else can you infer from that interaction than it did have to do with disability? And if there were ten blind people on that flight including me, and she did the same thing to all of us, you can bet it was a blindness thing. I was not out to make a scene, and I wasn’t out to be rude. In fact,, I did everything I could to avoid it short of giving up and accepting it. But when I think I’m becoming someone’s charity case, I’m sorry, it’s not in my nature to just take it. It’s called self-respect. Yes, Cody is right that this was a minor issue as they go, but I think he gets that the reason I brought it up was to speak on larger issues. To those of you who would’ve taken the free drink, would you have stopped at the Amtrak lunch? How about the groceries? I didn’t scream or rave at the attendant; I just said no. Why was that rude? At what point is it okay to say no, and and at what point does it become rude to simply say no? Or is it rude because the person saying no happens to be blind or disabled, and on some level we don’t want to rock the boat? Why isn’t it okay for me or Cody or whoever on this board to say when we need assistance or decline it, hopefully politely, when we don’t want or need either assistance or charity? Why couldn’t the flight attendant simply have done her job as she was supposed to do, as flight attendants on any other flight I’ve ever been on have done? I’m simply saying that from my experience, this was beyond the pale; not necessary.
I don't understand why people want to just sit back and take what is handed to them without question.
Whether I accept the drink or not generally has more to do with how tasty it is than anything else.
I can actually think of one time when I turned a free drink down. It happened about 1.5 years ago when I was walking home from school. Some homeless guy on the drag offered me some change. It was less than a dollar. He kept saying, "take it. It's all I've got." I told him that he probably needed it more than I did, so he offered me a beer instead. I said "no, thanks" and kept walking.
I can tell you all why some of us don't see this as an issue of respect or no respect; simply this: it is not always about you. I don't know how much more clearer I can make that. Besides, as I asked in an earlier post, why does it matter so much how others view you? Why do you care so much about whether they have an ulterior motive? I know it's hard to believe, but there are nice people in the world who, as I've said, wanna do nice things for others because, you know, they're nice.
I don't understand how people can make mountains out of molehills; in this case, being incensed over someone's nice gesture.
to clarify my actions. being that I have a life and was walking out to door to live it, I did not go in to as much detail as i probably should. I did tell the person who foisted the money on me that I did not need it, thank you very much and please take it back. they walked off. what was I going to do? I'm not going to go charging down the street screaming "take back your money you condescending patronizing idiot!!!" foolishly to many here instead of keeping it and buying a cup of coffee or whatever I gave it to a homeless guy who I knew. oh silver lightning for the record when I was not retired, I worked in an area where lots of homeless folk lived. that was not the only time I gave someone money. a good deed is meaningless if it is discussed with others. maybe instead of constantly ragging on the human race you might want to think of kindness you could share with others. just a thought...
You ask why I care about people’s motives? Because sometimes even kindness can go too far when it’s forced on you. If a potential benefactor sees me as somehow more unfortunate than they because of my blindness, that matters to me. And,quite honestly, I can nearly always tell. And if I’m the stereotypically grateful, cheerful little blind boy who thanks them profusely, I’m re-enforcing their prejudices. When I try to reject the intended gift politely, I’m automatically seen as rude. And if they become more forceful and insistent with me than I think is warranted, I become more insistent right back. You know what that means? It puts me into a very, very uncomfortable position. Because now I’m another stereotype – namely the embittered blind bitch with a chip on his shoulder. That’s not something I want to be. I am an extremely proud person, and perhaps that’s sometimes gotten me into trouble. But I was raised that way,, and I don’t know how else to be at this point. I have a rather strong sense of my own autonomy, and maybe I’m a little bit too demanding when it comes to my right to make decisions for myself. But I’m not a democracy; I’m an absolute monarchy. That’s just how it is. And I’m familiar with the concept of nice people. I can be a bit crusty and hard-assed at times, and maybe my sense of humor isn’t everybody’s glass of brandy, but believe it or not, I actually try to be among them. If you need something and I have it in my power to give it when asked to do so, I do my damnedest to give it. Some have called me generous to a fault for this, but that’s also how I am. Hopefully, though, I don’t force it if it’s unwanted because I understand that other people have their pride too. Not wanting to be someone’s charity case or good deed isn’t rudeness; it’s the exercise of the right not to be personally compromised. I don’t know why that’s so difficult to understand.
Cody, yes, I would have been deeply embarrassed with the money thing too. I wouldn't have gone off, but I would have said firmly that I don't need charity because I'm blind and that I realize his intentions are good but quite mis-guided.
And to answer your earlier question, the difference I feel is in the quantity. One drink is one drink but $30 worth, yes I understand why it would have made you feel awkward.
Here's the thing though, and I think this addresses both Chelsea and
Turricane. This was not a good deed, and it was not being helpful or kind. Being
helpful would have been to approach John and asked him if there was anything
he needed, did he know where the restrooms were, did he need a pillow or a
blanket, could she get him a beverage or a snack, did he know where his carry
on was. That would be a polite and generous thing to do, but note that all of
those started with the word ask. In order for it to be a generous thing, it has to
take the other person into consideration, not just yourself.
Its like this, you know those people who think they know everything there is
to know about blindness, so they tell you that you should be doing X in a certain
way that you know doesn't work for you? I get it a lot with guide dog stuff, I
used to get it with caning. I think we all know what I'm talking about. That isn't
generous action, because they force it on us. They approach us with the intent
of doing a good deed, but then don't ask what good deed needs to be done.
And yes Chelsea, I'm sorry, but me buying a drink is all about me. I don't
know who else you think is involved in that. If I'm buying a drink, I'm buying a
drink. There's no one else involved.
This makes me think of that post that made the facebook rounds, about a young woman who saw a VET at the grocery store and insisted on helping him, buying him all these things he didn't ask for, pushing him through the store in his wheelchair,paying for his cab home. He said no to all of these things, but she did it anyway. Now that, is sheer disrespect. She put her warm fuzzies over his dignity completely. It's one thing to offer. It's quite another to force. I think everyone has their line. For me, something small, like a drink, I would probably let go, considering I'd probably never meet her again, but if it was someone that I had to deal with on a pretty regular basis, it would set a bad patern in motion, so it would definitely give me pause and make me really consider it.
Exactly. And John brought something up. Pride does play a part though not a large part in the equation. The fact is, forced help is rudeness.
This is kind of unrelated, but I offer friends money for gas all the time. They always say no no that's ok. Still I feel bad.
That is a bit unrelated because that is based on an act of kindness and it was turned down. You didn't force it on them.
Okay, I’m in a pensive mood. A lot has been said since I last posted that’s made me want to explain to myself why I think the way I do with regard to some of the subjects here. Maybe someone else will correct any potential flaws in my thinking or at least learn something. Also, the following words aren’t meant as personal attacks on anyone here. They are just some semi-organized thoughts that have crossed my mind as I’ve been reading this board over the past few days. I’m not accusing, blaming, or shaming anyone on this site. If I get any replies, I won’t be able to address them for a while. I thought I’d write all my thoughts quickly on a Word document and paste them before I forget. I apologize for the length of my posts.
Literally being reduced to the very thing you fear or dislike, as opposed to encountering ignorant people who unintentionally classify you by their prejudices and actions. I see a huge difference.
I used to be deathly afraid of being associated with all those negative blind stereotypes familiar to us. I refused to subject myself to the stigma and shame of being blind. Just to be clear, I’m not saying that it’s shameful, only that I once wrongly felt this to be true. There was a time when I believed that people who are blind were second-class, and I wished for the impossible, even a miracle, so that I wouldn’t have to identify with them.
So I can partly understand the anger and the humiliation that incites disabled people to refuse help and random acts of kindness. I’m restricting my comments to blindness-related issues as much as possible so as to stay on topic. Besides I think everyone knows that all groups experience discrimination.
The shame and stigma of poverty is disastrous to people who are impoverished. It doesn’t have to concern the poor; it can be any other group that society views unfavorably. If you know that you are not like them, and at the same time if you can’t accept that the stigma of some groups will sometimes affect you through the ignorance of a few folks, then you are not being rational and honest with yourself. All groups are stigmatized and stereotyped. Just as I learned that blind people are not bogeymen, helpless or subhuman freaks, I came to that same realization about other groups that not everyone wishes to be associated with. I saw the light and came to know the human factor of blindness, I came to understand that they were unfairly stereotyped, discriminated against, stigmatized and even hated by some. When I learned more about blind people it helped me see that they were like any other group. That was when I was able to accept my blindness and identify with this group. I was able to accept and understand that there would be times when society would project onto me the same things I once wrongly applied to blind people. Just to clarify, when I say that I identify with this group, I only mean that if I were asked if I’m blind, my answer would be in the affirmative, nothing more.
This is probably why I have no qualms about someone taking me for being poor, or needy, or possessing superhuman qualities, or any other blindness-related stereotype. I know that for the majority of cases this only reaches as far as their mind. Their misperceptions aren’t my reality, nor do their prejudices mold me into a charity case. Being wrongly categorized with the needy isn’t tragic or fatal. In fact even society’s most chronically homeless have strengths that most people lack, they have had experiences that have shaped them into unique people who are able to feel more deeply, empathize with the suffering of others, etc., things that are rarely discussed and cherished in this information, capitalist age. I’m not romanticizing any marginalized group. But I do think that when we get into the habit of emphasizing negative stereotypes we run the risk of acting like bigots and hypocrites. It’s something we all subconsciously do.
I know people don’t need to grapple with soul-crushing adversity to learn empathy or to acquire a strong sense of morality. Still it’s a wonder that people who have such depth and substance stand out as rarities in the world, and at the same time they can be unsung modern heroes. They come from all walks of life, not just from the disabled or impoverished communities.
Others whose values differ like what’s fashionable and flashy, they don’t protest if they’re mistaken for being wealthy or wise. Some work hard to deceive and fool others to think that they are things they aren’t, like privileged and honorable, or whatever. And there are those others who, when they are mistaken for a charity case, or for being poor, have no problem thanking their benefactors for the complement, thanking them that they think they are courageous and able to survive on the streets and still keep their sanity. They give thanks to these so-called benefactors for having mistaken them for someone who hasn’t given up despite the fact they have submitted countless job applications.
A personal question: if you were ever mistaken for being wealthy, would you object and say that you refuse to be lumped in with selfish, egotistical and greedy people, all those negative stereotypes commonly attributed to people of money? Suppose you were asked by a complete stranger who is obviously an indigent to treat him or her to dinner. Would you be flattered, perhaps feel yourself one step above the rest? Or would you cherry-pick all the positives about wealth and welcome their misperception and pretend that you are above “the scum of the earth”? I ask this rhetorically because I sense that part of the reason some people refuse to be misidentified is that their concepts of certain groups aren’t founded on reality or unhealthily focused on a single negative characteristic.
Sometimes things seem completely backwards. Things like showing kindness aren’t supposed to be qualities that are applauded or found commendable. Strong ethics are what should make a society function properly, they are what’s supposed to be normal and what make people human. Instead we stand in awe of the person who is courteous to their neighbor, as if they possess god-like abilities.
Being mistaken for a charity case can be insulting and upsetting, but it shouldn’t shake you to the core to make you feel like you have just been violated or stripped of your identity. It’s a mistake made on the part of someone who is uninformed about your particular situation. To be clear, I’m not trying to justify their behavior, more like attempting to explain it, including to myself.
I don’t sense any malice from people who have offered their help or courtesy, and I consider myself a good judge of character. Most of the discrimination I’ve encountered has been unambiguous, but I also don’t deny that there are those rare veiled cases. Until now no one has handed me cash and I like to think that if someone ever does, I won’t be insulted. They are a product of the same society we live in, the society whose members include some that lack information about the blind, and others ignorant of different groups. The best outreach campaigns in the world wouldn’t be capable of eliminating this human frailty.
To me it’s the same as being mistaken for an ex-con, or racist, or atheist, or whatever else I’ve been wrongly labelled by people who know very little about me and go by what they see on the surface. I can come up with countless redeeming qualities that are possessed by even the members of such ostracized groups, and though I have personally been associated with them, I still wouldn’t have to have their phone numbers in my rolodex to know that even they can be good people. I’m also not saying that I never discriminate against anyone, I think we all do, or behave like bigots and hypocrites until something or someone checks us.
Those who know me in person know who I am and what I have stood for all these years. I don’t need to clarify things to them, and they’d be ready to defend me. But if it comes to the point where I’m getting a bad rap for a false accusation, and I or my loved ones can potentially be damaged, then yes, I will speak up for myself and try to rectify the situation. Luckily I have never been put on the spot like this. I have many repugnant personality traits, but they aren’t so innumerable that I wouldn’t be able to find grounds to defend and vindicate myself – it’s not impossible.
And this I say because I’ve been discriminated against in the past for things unrelated to disability. Reading several boards on this site has caused me to wonder if people who have been disabled from birth have learned to combat disability-bias more strongly than other types of discrimination, or if some have never come to know different types of discrimination. Something said in post 64 made me think of this. Another thing I’m wondering is what exactly do disabled people believe charity or help or kindness is doing to them when it’s offered without their consent or request? Do they refuse and object out of fear? Why exactly do such actions wound their pride and dignity? I too have experienced discrimination, but for other types of incidents that were impossible to ignore. But something like what was shared in the first post wouldn’t offend me at all, even if it had been driven by the flight attendant’s ignorance. In adition, a lot of what has been said here includes things that everyone experiences, it’s not strictly because the person is disabled.
. There are veterans who are struggling with these types of issues, not wanting to identify as disabled, or allowing others to call them blind, traumatized or paralyzed, etc. and they are facing a totally different situation, where someday they will have no choice but to accept that they are going to be mislabeled with those very things they fear and hate, and learn to cope as best they can.
The people who sometimes mistake us for being needy – their actions toward us aren’t even forcing us onto the streets and into alley ways, or to go without food. The momentary discomfort we feel from being miscategorized as a “charity case” comes nowhere close to having to live one second as a poor man. They aren’t asking us to live as a beggar for a day. Thank your lucky stars that your biggest concern in such situations is only that you have to deal with being mistaken as one of them. It’s simply a mistake that people who are ignorant make without any intention of insulting you, in the majority of cases that is. There are other things that a person can be mistaken for that can have potentially fatal consequences.
Also, do you even understand what you fear? Do you truly know what the needy have to go through? Do you honestly comprehend having to beg to keep your children fed? On top of that, do you know what makes these same people happy? Do you know their hobbies? What they value? What they fear, hate, and what their children read or draw? I ask rhetorically, not to assume that you don't know these things. We're all limited in what we can know about others. I know that for a long time I had no realistic understanding of what life was like being blind. All I had seen was a few homeless blind people on the streets, one who was a beggar, and another who was a junkie. The others looked so vulnerable and plain. But that was before, and now I think differently.
Being poor isn’t a crime or immoral. I repeat, I’m not saying that living in such conditions can be romantic, but there are other nonjudgmental, constructive ways of looking at marginalized out-groups.
I don’t know if anyone here has ever done any fund-raising. Perhaps try it sometime, try to speak for children from low-income families who are abused and stigmatized, get on their side, fight for their team, use all your skills to convince donors that their money will help them.
Maybe then you won’t find hard to stomach the notion of being mistaken for a poor blind man or woman who’s unable to afford a luxury. If all that some people are worried about is being misidentified, it’s honestly not so terrible. But I’d still like to understand a little better what some disabled people feel when they are offered unwanted things, like praise, or help, or whatever else. I haven’t been blind all my life so perhaps I’m not so attuned to disability-based discrimination like others on this site seem to be. I didn’t know there could be a difference based on the time one has been exposed to certain types of discrimination, but it was brought up on post 64.
This certainly gives me a lot to think about. I don't really know what is at the heart of my unease in such a situation. I guess it must be programmed into us somehow that it's rude, wrong, disgusting, or whatever. I don't know why it is this way exactly but it is.
Raskolnikov, I think many blind people are insecure/seeking approval--that is why they refuse nice gestures such as the one this topic is talking about. They are likely also fearful that they will be forced to face things about themselves that either they don't like, or don't wanna believe to be true.
For instance, it took me what seems like a long time to accept the fact that I am a needy person. I used to hate when people would refer to me as such, but as I've gotten older, I've become comfortable with admitting that truth about myself.
That's not to say I don't wanna change it so that I can better myself; it's just to say that that's where I am right here and now.
I suppose many blind people struggle with this, because they see being needy as a bad thing. To me it is neither bad nor good; it simply is a fact of many of our lives. (I used to be in the camp who saw it as a bad thing though) but life experience has taught me a lot.
You needy? Wow you actually come across as unattached. Anyway, you put forth an interesting insight though I think people refuse such things because they don't want to be treated like the poor little blind person.
Raskolnikov, yours were well written and very provocative message, which I basically agree with. you make many many valid points.
we are blind. of course that is a central focus of many people's lives. I've been this way since birth. to many, it's a shock for them to realize that it's not the main thing other people are concerned with. 90% to 95% of the people I deal with in life are kind generous folks. sometimes they say things that might not be what we would like. hey sometimes I do too. the "I think you are amazing...." remark that makes some people mad is one. hey, you know, often we need to put ourselves in the shoes of that person. when I first met her, I have a dear friend who made that remark. it was easy for me to turn the tables and say "you amaze me too. you do more work in five minutes than most people do all day." instead of getting offended and outraged and nasty, it's far easier to turn something like that remark on its head and educate or make others feel better about themselves. as we age, marry, have children, and experience life, we learn that we are not the center of the universe. for 32 years I took public transportation to and from my job. several times, I have had station managers and bus ddrivers say "hey, you are blind and you smile." I am like "what?" they say that the vast majority of blind folks have mean scowling and unpleasant demeanors. we all have the right to feel however we want too. after almost dying several times I am ahappy person. llife is great. from being married to my husband fwho is the most centered calm person blind or sighted that I know, I've begun to feel comfortable in my skin. it's a wonderful feeling. I hope I'm making some degree of sense here.
I am not sure how my last post sounded unattached--I was simply sharing my thoughts. Since I am no longer one who has the outlook I talked about in that post, I didn't think it fair to say "I."
To close out my contributions here since, like other threads, we're now going around in circles,, I'm of the opinion that how we choose to conduct ourselves with other people and in public is up to us as individuals without fear od judgement from others as we're all different and have been brought up differently. but we do have to be mindful that probably most sightlings seem to generalize when it comes to minority groups. ie, if a blind person was rude when asked if they need help, they will generally not want to ask another blind person. So in this instance of the drink thing, if you are happy to accept it, you could say something like "Oh thank you; I'm afraid my purse is with my luggage and I can't reach it" just to divert from the blindness reason of accepting the free drink.
But remember, you don't know for sure if they are offering because of the blind thing - chances are they are, but best not to assume.
With regard to posts 74-78 in general, there were some interesting questions raised here. Honestly, the thing that I fear the most is being seen as weak and pitiable to people. It probably started around the age of eight or nine when I began to really nnotice how some people either treat you with pity or with scorn where blindness was concerned. Beginning in third grade, I was not allowed to participate in gym because the gym teacher thought I’d get hurt. That didn’t end until I was in eighth grade. The irony of that was I found I wasn’t particularly athletic anyway, so when things like eye surgeries, a dislocated knee and appendicitis took me out of gym for a long time during the school year, it freed me up to take study hall and do what I liked doing best – namely reading. There was a group of kids who began to tease me because of my blindness when I was in fourth grade. At about the age of ten or so, when I was sitting in the doctor’s office, these two old bitches talked about me as though I couldn’t hear, saying what a shame it was for me to have to live like that. I hated it. And whenever I felt someone was trying to make allowances for me or treat me differently because of blindness, I cringed, got angry, didn’t know how to handle it. I also bulked at being overprotected. There was a stage in life where my brother was doing that to me all the time, even though I had no idea why he was doing it since my parents really didn’t do that overmuch. We’ve come a long way in recent years, but many of the stereotypes of us needing charity or pity remain. In and of itself, blindness is a pretty neutral thing for me most of the time, because in the vast majority of instances no one remarks on it. I’ve said this before. Days and days and days can go by without any kind of an incident, and then someone will do something stupid. I think this is a pretty universal thing for blind or disabled people. Sometimes the incident itself can be relatively minor, the quantity of the gift attended to be bestowed of relatively little importance. But for me, it’s not really quantity that counts, it’s the intent. For me, someone attempting to give me a dollar because I’m blind is the same thing as someone wanting to pay for an expensive dinner for me out of the blue because I’m blind. Both are equally offensive, as both are centered in pity. And sometimes it’s the intent coupled with how insistent the person can get when I don’t want it. Polite refusal is not rudeness. Getting uncomfortable when you know someone is treating you differently because they find you less fortunate because of your blindness is natural. I believe that the more you’re overprotected and coddled as a child and not allowed to do things for yourself, the more pathetic and off-putting you are as an adult. This is something I’m decidedly not, and hope never to be. I have pretty high standards for myself, so maybe I have overly high standards at times for other people. That’s why I bulked at the situation with which I was confronted. Because while the quantity of the gift intended to be bestowed here was relatively minimal in the grand scheme of things, it was done in an abnormal, off-putting manner, and I could discern the probable motive behind it. It was also out of the ordinary for me. For me, the right and proper thing to do whenever I pay for goods is to express interest in what I want, conduct the transaction and enjoy. That should be the end of it. By doing what she did, I felt the attendant was depriving me of my right to make my own decision, and also of the right to be left alone and largely unnoticed. Blindness will get you noticed anyway, but someone else doesn’t have to magnify the situation and make you stand out even more by essentially forcing you into an awkward situation. That’s what I was objecting to.
Also, it’s not that I don’t appreciate a nice gesture. If you’re a bartender or some other bar customer, for instance, and you want to treat me to a drink after I’ve already spent money because you think I’m cool and interesting, then I’m okay with that. I can read the situation and go on with my life. But if I think you’re doing something for me because your motive is pity, I’ll be uncomfortable with it. I can’t help that about myself. I don’t think it’ll ever change. There are nice gestures and then gestures that are nice on the surface, but which, without meaning to be, are demeaning and insulting. As I’ve already said, there was no evil intent here, and there was no evil intent in any of the other situations in which I found myself having to put my foot down because the gesture went above and beyond what was appropriate under the circumstances. And sometimes those are the hardest situations to deal with.
One thing I notice in several of the posts in opposition to John is that they
believe, or seem to believe, that those of us who would refuse such actions
would do it rudely. I wouldn't have refused the drink rudely. I would have simply
said no thank you and paid for my drink. If someone grabs me to direct me
somewhere, i gently remove their hand and tell them that I'm perfectly capable
of walking by myself, thank you. One does not have to be harsh to refuse a
service.
Also, there seems to be this idea that something was done with good
intentions, and thus it must be good. I vehementally disagree with this. Good
intentions do not make an action automatically good. For example, grabbing a
blind girl, as has been discussed on these boards before, can be done with good
intentions, but grabbing people is not a good action unless it is to spare them
harm. Those preachers who yell about gay people going to hell are doing it with
good intentions at heart, but they're not doing a good thing. What matters is
not the intent, but the action.
I think the best example is in the play Romeo and Juliet, the scene where
Tybalt kills Mercutio. Romeo tries to come between the two of them as they
fight, and this distracts Mercutio, who is then stabbed beneath Romeo's arm
where he couldn't defend himself. Mercutio then asks, why did you come
between us. Romeo's answer is, I thought all for the best. Those thoughts for
the best got his friend killed, but it was done with good intentions.
Furthermore, malice was mentioned. I don't think anyone in this situation
harbors malice. I don't think I've ever met anyone who harbored malice toward
the blind. Surely none of the people who force their cherity upon us harbored
malice. The man who shoved money into my hand, the flight attendant, the
people who pray over us in public, even the women who talked about being
blind as if it is just so awful, none of them harbor malice. They harbor pity, but
pity can be just as detremental to us as malice. Perhaps even more so in some
ways. Malice is something you can ignore. But pity is something which takes
away your agency.
Take those people who write legislation about the blind without ever asking
the blind for input. They do that out of pity. The people who shelter their blind
children, do it out of pity. The teachers who don't let blind students do equal
work, they do that out of pity. They don't do it because they hate blind people,
or are angry at blind people. They do it because they pity blind people. They
can't imagine a world where the thing they want to do to be helpful is not
actually helpful, so they do it without thought to the impact. The parent can't
imagine a world where their child has to learn to cook, even though she may
burn herself many times over. The legislatures can't imagine a world where the
laws they pass aren't helpful, so they pass them without input, and we have to
live with the consequences. That is the harm of pity.
Now, I freely admit that someone buying you a drink out of pity is a small
thing. I don't think anyone is going to argue that. if John had said that he'd
come out of his chair, punched the flight attendant in the mouth and called her
a pitying some of a bitch, I'd be telling him that he needs to calm down, it
wasn't that big a deal. Even just raising his voice would have been too much of
a reaction. But rejecting pity because you hold yourself to a higher standard,
and want to be treated with dignity and equality, that is not a bad thing. That's
the argument I'm trying to make.
I've been in situations where I had to refuse help, since the help offered wasn't actually helpful. someone grabbing me and taking me somewhere, with no idea of where I'm trying to go, is simply not helpful. I do try to do it as nicely as I can, but my orientation is so bad these days that the slightest misdirection can get me disoriented and out of sorts, so if they don't or won't let go and they're being forceful, that's where my niceness ends. A month ago, I was going down to the lobby of my building to check my mail and pay my rent. This guy grabbed my shirt and began pulling me to the left, (toward the outside door,)saying, "Watchit watchit." I told him to please let go of me, that I did not want to go outside. He persisted. I tried to keep walking in the direction of the office window where I would pay my rent, but his constant tugging was disorienting. I finally grabbed his wrist and squeezed, none too gently, until he grunted and let go. He said he was just trying to help. I told him that he might have been more helpful if he'd taken the time to find out where I was trying to go first. He walked away in a huff, obviously feeling very unappreciated. A lot of witty and sarcastic remarks ran through my head in the middle of the situation, but all I wanted was to make sure I got across the lobby and paid my rent and checked my mail without getting lost. I could only hear out of one ear at the time, so it was just plain inconveniencing. I was probably meaner than I needed to be, but did that guy really have my interests at heart?
No he didn't. He was thinking of what a great deed he was doing and oh wouldn't his mother be proud. That's what kills me. Cody said it best so I don't need to repeat myself. Johndy, you and I were treated the same as blind youth and perhaps this is why I have the standards I do. I don't want charity. Now if I required it I'd say I have no choice in the matter. After all, I have a family to worry about now. However, when it is forced on me I will cringe inside.
Raskolnikov, good post.
We are only talking a drink in this particular discussion.
Johndy you’ve asked what we thought, and we have given our answers.
Some agree, most disagreed.
We didn’t change your mind Johndy, but you asked for discussion on it, so you’ve gotten it.
I can totally understand when help is not positive, but that doesn’t happen every time, so we blind can’t just assume the offers is bad, but you that agree with Johndy seem to think all offers are.
In Anthony’s example, it happens, and you do the best you can.
In silvers example about someone pushing some money in to his hand, he says he went off.
I personally have witnessed blind people being rude when they really had no call, so I can understand how others view us if we’re not smiling, or have a frown on our faces.
Now, I understand, a blind person may or may not know the expression, but it is how seeing people decide on mood.
When I’m offered something just because that person assumes I’m less fortunate then they are doesn’t make it so.
It might be further from the case as day and night, so why should I take on that placement and get angry?
As I’ve said, I know my state in life, so what someone else thinks it is their thing not mine.
The opinion, feeling, or whatever, doesn’t make me lesser, or more when they say how amazing I am.
Maybe I am amazing when I’ve just repaired something in their house they couldn’t do.
That would make someone think so, because they can see it, but still couldn’t fix it.
Laughing.
So, on this topic, I guess I’ve said all I have.
Hospitality is just that, nothing more.
I accept it.
Now, who wants to buy me a whiskey and soda and take me to dinner? Hmm?
Laughing.
Ok, so what about friends who offers to buy you something, but doesn't make you pay it back?
If a friend buys you something and doesn’t ask anything in return, I’d say that’s different. You’ve established a relationship with that friend that is mmost likely a relationship of equals. Friends have done that for me, but I’ve done that in return. It happens. But then, that’s a completely different situation.
Understand that I did want to spark discussion on the matter I posed. Many of you did disagree; some agreed. I don’t really expect everyone to agree with me 100 percent of the time, and I was pretty aware before I posted it that some would agree and some wouldn’t. What I wanted was a discussion, and that’s what I got. I will say that I presented the same story to two people at work. One of them, my best girl, is blind, and she tended to see it as a matter of self-respect. Actually, she was pretty pissed on my behalf. The other was my shift supervisor, who was sighted. She was a little milder on the subject, but asked if I’d refused politely. “Then, you weren’t rude simply for refusing,” she said. But people have their differing opinions. I still think the discussion was and is worth while, because I believe it brings up the issue of whether all refusal is always rude, or whether you can refuse politely and still be thought of as rude. I wonder from some of you who thought I was rude, was it the refusal itself? Because that brings up, I think, another issue. Why don’t some of us think we have the right ever to refuse? That’s what it seems like to me. Maybe some of you are too afraid you’ll be thought of as rude that even the slightest refusal is tantamount to a mortal sin. I don’t know. I got an F in mind-reading when I was in school. And like I said, I didn’t go off. I said never mind and put the table back up, and later bought the drink from another attendant. I did nothing inappropriate. That would undoubtedly have brought me more attention than I wanted. It would also have re-enforced another stereotype – namely the one I mentioned earlier. But if she had simply asked me whether she could treat me to a drink, that would’ve been better than what she did. I might have refused politely or I might not, because the situation would’ve been a little different. This felt wrong. Can’t really explain it any other way than I know it when I see it.
I understand. It is like this primal feeling.
I can't say you were rude, I just felt it was not becominging to call attenchen.
Sure, you were polite I guess, I wasn't there to see how you said never mind.
When you said never mind, you wanted the drink, and got one, so anyone watching that might perceive it as the same as the attended did, stubbornness.
If you said never mind and didn't get the drink at all, then you just changed your mind, but in this case you made it clear you didn't want her freebies.
Like the others that disagreed, people might wonder, hell, why not?
Sure, we can refuse anything, that is our right, but in this case, explaining that you'd prefer to pay and thanking her for the offer may have been better then saying never mind.
Just a thought.
I'm sitting hear trying to come up with a counter argument but I don't have it. He shouldn't have just said "never mind." You got me.
I actually concede the point. I thought of similar wording today, but in my defense, which is by no means a perfect one, I sometimes get caught off-guard with surprises like that, and I react not always to my best advantage. This was so out of the ordinary, and I pretty much knew what she was doing as she was doing it and why, that the never mind part probably wasn’t one of my better moments. That said, the customary thing to do would have been for her to have just conducted her part of the transaction in an ordinary fashion. Then neither one of us would’ve ended up with negative perceptions of one another.
"never mind" is what a spoiled brat teenagers says after they lose an argument or don't get their way. in my opinion it is rude and disrespectful. the five words that make the world run better are "please" "thank you" and "I appreciate." the second two you need to obviously practice more often.
Well that was nasty.
Well, at least she won't offer another blind person a free drink...
Sure she will. She's a hospitality worker.
Yup it's her job so what can ya do?
Initially I thought that post 96 was a little bit snarky, especially in light of the fact that I conceded a point in the immediate post preceding it, but I wanted honest discussion, so I got it. I will say this in response. I do not take kindly to a total stranger essentially telling me what they’re going to do for me without asking. By telling me: “Oh, I’m not charging you for that,” the attendant was basically telling me: “I’m giving you this thing whether you want it or not, and you will accept it.” She didn’t say: “The airline is giving you this comp drink. We do that for customers sometimes, okay?” Or even: “I’d like to treat you to this if you don’t mind.” That would’ve given me room to say: “Okay, thanks,” or “No thanks.” Remember that I initially tried to pay politely, and then when it was not accepted, that’s where the “Never mind” came from. Could I have said: “I’m sorry, I’d feel more comfortable paying,” and put the tray table up? Sure. But honestly, I wasn’t thinking along those lines at that time. Call me fallible. Call me human. What was first and foremost in my mind is that this person whom I didn’t know was attempting to make me accept something I didn’t want. See, as I’ve said before, it’s not the quanity or the magnitude of the transaction that was at issue. It was the totality of the circumstances, the last of which being that I truly felt compromised in my ability to decide for myself what was acceptable and what was not. Maybe I acted in an adolescent fashion because I felt my adult ability to decide things for myself was being challenged. I’ve worked in customer service for several years now, and never, never, never do you do something without someone’s permission. You might say you couldn’t do something because it would be against government regulations, but whenever you want to do something that would benefit the person you’re talking to, you always ask. There’s no compromise in that. It’s just how it’s done.
Yes human. Smile.
I'll give points for her delivery.
After reading all the discussion posted on this board topic, I thought I would take the time to reread the original post for this board topic. As I reread the original post, a few things jumped out at me.
I understand I am in the minority here. However, I honestly do not believe you did anything wrong in the way you responded to this situation. While it is definitely true that you could have responded differently, it is also true that the flight attendant could have responded differently too.
What I notice as I reread the original post is how the first response from the flight attendant regarding your purchase of an alcoholic drink is personal towards you. Therefore, it seems more than reasonable to think the reason why she is refusing you to purchase an alcoholic drink has something to do with you. If it was nothing personal about you then she would not have responded by telling you that she was not charging you.
However, when you said the drinks are not free, and she responded by saying that she was not charging anything for "these" drinks, what drinks was she talking about? It is my understanding that airlines typically charge for the alcoholic drinks while providing non- alcoholic drinks for free. Everyone who has responded to this board topic stating they would have simply accepted the free drink appears to be assuming that the free drink you would have received would have been a gin and tonic. However, is this the drink you would have received for fee? As I reread your initial post, I detect a slight hint of the flight attendant refusing to serve you alcohol.
However, it is the last remark that the flight attendant says to you as you are getting off the plane that really stands out to me. This is a judgmental statement loaded with all kinds of assumptions that the flight attendant was making about you. Why the flight attendant had any reason to make these assumptions about you when you never made any assumptions about her is beyond me. However, these types of judgmental statements are often used by other people as a means to control you.
I do not think you did anything to draw unnecessary attention to yourself or caused any kind of scene in front of others. Someone was imposing something on you that was making you feel uncomfortable, and you simply responded in a manner that you deemed to be necessary to defuse the situation. I honestly do not believe there is anything wrong in refusing what someone else is imposing on you when it makes you feel uncomfortable. It is usually these instinctual feelings that keep us as human beings safe. So I honestly do not believe there is anything wrong in wanting to protect yourself or stand up for yourself when someone else is doing something to you that makes you feel uncomfortable.
The flight attendant said what she said because the drink was given out of pity do to your blindness. That's how I see it.
Look, there's a lot we don't know. The flight attendant could have been an
angel sent from god ti give you alcohol, who the fuck knows. We don't have to
argue over the specifics in order to argue the principle of accepting free things
because of your blindness. which is what this board post boils down to. The
answer, in my estimation, is no. Don't accept free stuff simply because you're
blind unless its necessary for life, like SSI.
That's how I feel as well.
Gin and tonic is necessary.
Laughing.
I personally prefer rum and coke.
Well, I do have to wonder. Had it been a vodka and lime juice ***
lol
I haven't read the whole board, but here's my view. It'll waggle some eyebrows, but, who cares?
First, if I could afford the drink, I'd push the issue some. If she just wouldn't take my money, I'd probably find out the cost, and donate it somewhere.
If I am broke, like now, you better believe, I'd not put up a fuss. I'm a bit obsessive, and keep saving this cheap bottle of wine for a later day, so haven't had a drink, since one of my best friends got me a PiniColotta, last state Convention. I guess, I'm worried I won't be able to drink it fast enough, or something. And, I don't really drink a whole lot. It's just funny that I keep "not drinking" the wine, because "I might run out later." Kind of lame, if you ask me, and I admit it.
But, if someone offered me a drink, that I'd enjoy, I'd guzzle that thing, right now. But, if I could afford and someone bought, I'd do something nice, and "Pay It Forward". Note: reffering to book of same title.
So someone buy me a drink, please? LOL
God Bless,
Sarah
That was also a great movie.